Category: philosophy/religion topics
OK, here's one of those let's-pick-your-brain questions, and keep in mind this question is from the perspective of an agnostic. So, do you believe that most things that happen to you, good or bad, are a result of cause and effect or random chance, or do you believe things are much more orchestrated by your god or fate or other supernatural forces. Also, do you believe that whatever happens to you is some direct result of your actions, as in good things that happen are rewards for good things you did, and if something unfortunate or disappointing happens, it means you are being punished for some wrong you did. I guess I ask because I've known some folks who feel that if life isn't going the way they expect it to or are not getting what they want, they feel some outside force is purposely keeping good fortune from them because of some wrong they did. Then of course, there's the common phrase "what did I do to deserve this" as if some bad situation is always the result of something you did and it's a kind of payback being dealt to you by unearthly beings.
I hope the hell it's random, because if it's not, then God or someone must really hate me. I won't go into details here (my friends know what I've gone through for the past six years), but if it's true that bad things only happen if you deserve them, then I sure wish I knew what bad things I've done to deserve what I've been going through.
I agree. I would have to wonder how a person could stay relatively content with life if they saw every event as nothing but punishment or reward for their behavior.
I agree it has to be random. Otherwise, God must really hate the Jews to put them in concentration camps.
What about people destroyed in a natural disaster?
What about people destroyed by someone just to make a political statement?
I could go on and on, but you get my point.
I hope to hear from some of the religious people on this.
Bob
I'm with you guys on this one. Given the lack of evidence to the contrary, I'd have to pull the good ole Occam's razor and not postulate any extra forces beyond simple oblivious physical cause and effect. Some days you're the bug, and some days you're the windshield, as the old saying goes. Moreover, the position that God somehow determines what happens to you always strikes me as somewhat weird. When something good happens, people go all gooey and start talking about "Miracles still happen, God was looking out for us, etc.", but when bad things happen, you never hear them say "Man, either I really deserve to be punished or else God is a b*stard." Wouldn't that be the obvious conclusion?
Just a few scattered thoughts on this subject.
I think many people try to convince themselves that something beyond their own physical power is orchestrating the events in this world because for many of them it is the only way they can see a purpose in their lives. They think that all things, whether fortunate or not, happen for a reason, and that even though it may not be known to them, something meaningful will ultimately come out of it.
I guess it’s a personal choice; you’re either one who needs to include a supreme being in your life as a way to make sense, and give meaning to it, or you can just accept things at face value as they come, going about your daily business making life what you wish it to be with the little control you have over it.
It’s a wonder to me why in the history of life on this earth there has never existed a civilization that was completely atheistic.
Maybe everything we experience is a direct result of the actions we take and the choices we make.
Nobody can draw definite conclusions because seeing the big picture all at once is impossible for us earthlings. A spiritual person would probably say that god’s ways and thoughts are above those of men, and that because we don’t know his mind, our interpretation of worldly events are incorrect; in other words, what we perceive as evil may not be so in god’s thinking.
And that’s another thing which impresses me; both the religious and non-religious have no problem recognizing evil, or recognizing good in the world. So we’re all moral beings. But from where do the religious believe that fortune comes when it smiles on the non-religious? Or from where do the non-religious think fortune comes when it smiles on the religious? Either the spiritual man is being blessed by a moral divine being, or the atheist is being blessed by an immoral divine being. And what about those who are considered evil persons by the world at large? Who’s blessing them? What do the religious have to say? And the non-religious? Does it all originate from the human family? I can’t imagine a drug dealer thanking some devil for selling a thousand dollars worth of crack on one night, or a petophile thanking some other demon for having another victim. The conscience must play an important role somewhere in here.
God causes the sun to shine upon both the wicked and the holy, and he does the same thing to them with the rain, or at least this is what the Bible says. Theodicy is an interesting topic; trying to justify the existence of a moral god with the existence of evil in the world.
Mistreated Christians are encouraged to persevere in their good works no matter how hostile their environment might be, and few of those I know try very hard to practice this.
It’s also a wonder to me why, when it comes to questions about quality of life, most tend to focus on why bad things happen. Fortunate things that happen never cause arguments, as though nobody really notices the world around them until a tsunami wipes out an entire island. Such events have always happened, and it’s interesting that the impact of catastrophies seems to be greater than that of good events. I don’t even know how to define the opposite of a catastrophe. Can it be defined as a miracle? Can we even set a catastrophe side by side with another event to make comparisons? I know that the effects of a catastrophe are seen as destructive, deadly, and just totally traumatic and negative, something to mourn over; and so for those who believe in miracles, the effects of a miracle are restorative, just something to be happy and thankful for. Restoring sight to the blind, returning hearing to the deaf, raising the dead, or restoring a collapsed building.
Things like this just don’t happen, and at times I think that if they did, then we could say that the impact of both good and evil is balanced. But to what or to whom would we attribute these things? to a moral god? or to a devil? Or would we also say of these things: they’re simply random, no divine being behind them whatsoever?
If the smog one day disappeared from the sky, or if an extinct bird suddenly began singing in the trees again, or if the diseased became healthy, would we give the credit to an invisible being? Wasn’t Jesus accused by the religious of his day of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub? Spontaneous occurrences, inexplicaple in nature. All is confusion when it comes to worldly events, evil and good. Or maybe my idea of what good is supposed to be is wrong.
And some believe that they’re cursed. I sometimes think I’m cursed, too.
I'm not sure what I think about this, and I'm not sure it matters. what ever happens is going to happen, I trust my God enough to know that whether it's random or a punnishment, I will get through it if I was meant to. One may say that it is naive to be content with ignorance, but in some circumstances it's fine for me...not to the point where I'm unwilling to learn how to make things better, but to the p9oint where it's okay if I can't resolve every inner issue, can't answer every life question, and can't accurately predict what will happen to me in the future.
I think that our lives are planned out for us or that we plan our lives before we're borne. I know most people talk about co-incidences, but I think that if something is supposed to happen then it will.
I'm with Brooke on this one. She raised a great point.
I also would have to say that from a Christian's point of view, I think we bring much of what goes on on ourselves. In otherwords, you may have cancer, but your fellow human race is what increased radiation, polution, poor foods, and big manufacturing to the point where the human immune system sometimes can't fight an attack like that off anymore.
It's not God's fault things happen the way they do, although I do believe He allows them to.
Don't those of you who believe your life is already planned out feel like puppets or that the universe is manipulating you or you're only a chess piece? If that's the truth, I'd rather hold onto the illusion that I have control over my life, thank you muchly.
Why do things happen? ... Because they're supposed to?
Well, I do believe in The Fates, each controling one of the three threads of our life: birth, life and death. They even hold sway over The Gods, along with time itself of course. On a less universal level, I believe that, yes, there are times when what happens to me is the direct result of what I do or do not do. For example, if I promise a particular deity that I'll do something for him/her and then don't do it out of laziness, he/she may punish me for not keeping my promise. Certainly, if I were to ever mock The Gods that's just asking for trouble. In contrast, if I do something to please them, they may do something good for me in return. I said may because they don't have to love me or take care of me, but it's usually wise to win their favour if possible. But I also believe that sometimes, they like to test me and sometimes, things just happen for no reason. Not everything is divinely controled, or we wouldn't have any free will. I don't think The Gods punish every little offence, but if you push it, you're asking for it. I also don't believe that you need to fear them or to beg for every little thing either for them to give you good things. It's all an act of balance and moderation. Now as for the big questions, why is their hunger, sorrow, disease, pain, crime etc, that I don't know. Only The Gods themselves know that. There is also a school of thought that says what we do as mortals is just that. We cause our own problems, in many cases. So, since we don't have to be loved by our Gods, if we put our fellow humans in conscentration camps, for example, they may or may not help us. Furthermore, at least in my religion, The Gods will exist with or without us, so they don't have to prove to us that they're here. We either believe or don't believe, and no one's going to hate us if we don't. But back to the main question, I also have an interest in astrology and numerology. I would love to go to a real astrologer or numerologist, not the boardwalk or newspaper type, but one who's really studied their respective art. I think they would have alot to tell me. Maybe, those sciences are just windows into the future and not what actually controls it, but I do believe they have their place.
I'm a coward who believes in cause and effect and Occum's razor.
If a Christian jumps off a tall building he will smash up. Same for an atheist.
But the application of this logic is like looking into the mouth of a tiger. Those teeth are there, but it's frightening to look.
When I am sick or dieing, or those for whom I care, then I abandon a heartless scientific approach and go crying to God, or Gods, whoever can help me.
What fools we are, and no one cares.
Bob
I don't mean to preech or anything, and I'm not saying that people who feel this way are bad etc. But I truly feel sorry for those who believe in absolutely nothing. Even before I had a religion, I believed that there was a higher power than myself, something that watches over all of us. I went through the whole religion is created by humanity philosophy and saw almost everything scientifically. But one philosopher, a Christian as a matter of fact, helped to change my mind. He made a wager saying that if God was real and he believed in him he'd go to heaven, but if he wasn't and he still believed, he had nothing to lose. So while I wasn't seeking a religion when I found mine, my mind was opened a little so that I could accept it. But back to those who don't believe, it must be a very lonely place, having no one and nothing to turn to in times of need, probably not believing in spirits either, so that you can't even call on those who've crossed over into whatever to help you.
Tiffanitsa, the philosopher you are talking about is Blasé Pascal, and it's funny you should mention him.
I almost became a zealot because of Pascal's wager, which states:
If you believe in God and God exist, then you'll be happy and live eternally.
If you believe in God and God does not exist, then you won't live eternally, but you'll be happy.
Therefore, if you believe in God you will be happy.
But, look around, how many truly happy Christians do you know?
How happy were the Jahova's witnesses or Jews in the concentration camps because they believed.
Hats off to old Blasé, but he's still wrong.
Bob
Well, I know alot of happy pagans, Hellenic Polytheists and otherwise. Serving The Gods brings joy to our lives, and I'm sure it's true for the monotheists out there as well with their God. Plus, it brings us closer as a community. While I'm not Greek Orthodox, I can say that that religion is what brings most modern Greeks together as well, and it's what helped us to win the War of Independence against the Ottoman Empire. And think of all the art work, the cultural insight, the music, the books and the other expressions that people from various religions have made over time. Religion helps to define culture, helped people in the past to push the boundaries of what was known, just to find out what was really there. Many scientific discoveries or sciences themselves stemmed from religion. And many of these sciences etc, including the computer, along with their downfalls, do bring happiness.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that if you followed the practices of the ancient Greeks, you would have been left on a rock at birth because you are a girl and because you are disabled.
Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Why would you worship a God or Goddess who doesn't care whether or not you worship them?
Bob
You raised some very important and interesting questions. As for me being blind and a woman, we've changed alot since ancient times. Even the pure reconstructions who try to do things the old way wouldn't agree with that idea. Even some ancients didn't, though it was a common practice. But today, we don't sacrifice animals (except maybe hunters) and we don't discriminate against women, the handicapt, different sexual orientations etc. As a matter of fact, when I first joined one of our religious boards, the first thing that was said to me was "do you think The Gods care if you're blind?" In other words, they'll except my offerings and worship no matter what. Of course, there'll always be an odd ball out there who goes completely against everyone, but he/she shouldn't be taken seriously. As for worshipping gods who technically don't need it, all I can say is that I've personally had very good experiences with them. I know that I can't always count on them being there, but I think it's better to acknowledge them than not to, and we do have a system whereby you give me I give you and so on. It's just that they may give in ways that I don't immediately or may never understand. I love this discussion btw. It's really making me think and stand behind my answers. lol Debating is one of the things that has stayed the same with us. Thanks.
I prefer to think of it as a discussion, but debate will do fine.
Socrates is one of my heroes--rather, I would have loved to have been one of his students. But, he didn't debate, he just questioned.
In an earlier post I asked, "why would you worship a God or Goddess who didn't care whether or not you worshipped them."
That got me to thinking, and I've concluded (for the moment at least) that that might be the only God worth worshiping.
If I could converse with a self-aware representation of science, I'd probably worship him/her.
Somehow I find Gods that say "if you worship me, I won't hurt you" kind of sadistic at best.
What do you think?
Bob
Well, okay... Well, this is the bible, common sense and Christianity mixed together. It's a little of everything, except of randomness.
I mean disabilities and defects you didn't cause yourself is granted by God. A lot of people view it as a bad thing, but I encourage all to think of it as a gift. I mean if you are going to sit there and whine about things and everyone hates you, obviously you caused it. You sinned, and God made human nature to be perfect, but satan defects it. He makes people react how they do a lot of the time.
Another good example is you just asked someone if a seat was emty and they cussed you out. Well, that's really not your fault. It's satan acting on the other person and they allowing it.
About the concentration camps...
Satan made Hitler make those decisions, and he allowed the devil to take there effects without thinking. Yet Hitler could have controled himself. The devil is no excuse. The sinner is to blame, because they don't try to think and control themselves. If you don't control yourself, satan will be happy to do it for you. So, consider, either you do or don't let him.
Well, sometimes it's nothing to do with religion. It's just a dumb decision and ta-da, you have a bad effect.
A kid runs in to the street after the mum has told him to not. He gets run over, and dies. Well, the kid didn't listen.